Top headrace cup - one or two pieces that come out?

[Heelander]

Bought myself some All Balls tapered headraces and cups.

However....the top All Balls cup is a good bit deeper/taller than the OEM cup that's in there. Then I see that there is what appears to be a second spacer/sleeve pressed in also beneath the OEM cup.

Am I supposed to take out BOTH the OEM cup and the sleeve beneath it, before I fit the All Balls Cup?

[Con Rod]

When you replace the bearings there is no need to replace with OEM, but you should replace with a good quality replacement.

Generally speaking good quality bearings come out of Japan or Germany.

Specifically regarding all balls I have seen a number of their kits, and Pyramid parts kits for bearings and fork seals and the like.

They are pretty poor quality and the cost saving versus a good quality bearing, such as Naichi or similar is not much

For the staring head bearings you need to replace all the parts, so the race on the steering stem, the balls and the race in the frame. Also I presume you are replace both the upper and lower bearing.

When replacing those bearings you might want to use needle roller bearings rather than ball and race. Whilst ball and race are absolutely fine for the job I dont like them as it is not unusual to drop one of the balls and have to spend hours scouring the garage floor to find it.

you can find bearings sizes and numbers here:

http://www.trx850.com/phpBB_forum/downl ... &mode=view

With the numbers you can get aftermarket Japanese or German made bearings for a pretty good price

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/

[cobbadiggabuddyblooo]

I have around 150,000 km up on the std oem ball race bearings in the steering head and still no issues.
Front end damage twice in that period and all I do is clean and repack them and tighten down per spec in the manual. Still run smoothly with no notchyness or knocking.

You have to torque them down tightly to start to seat everything then back them off and retention again to a minor setting . Both torque specs are in the manual.

I agree with Paul when replacing the bearings.
Wheel bearings are only $12 from your local bearing supplier and you'll get quality Japanese bearings.

[alextrx850]

Bought myself some All Balls tapered headraces and cups.

However....the top All Balls cup is a good bit deeper/taller than the OEM cup that's in there. Then I see that there is what appears to be a second spacer/sleeve pressed in also beneath the OEM cup.

Am I supposed to take out BOTH the OEM cup and the sleeve beneath it, before I fit the All Balls Cup?

Hi Heelander, after removing the steering stem..and then the old ball bearings, you will see the bearing races to be removed from the frame..?
The lower is removed with a long punch to the slot in the frame ..once the race has moved..you can then ocillate from side to side and it will just fall out.
Now the top bearing race is the same but inverted....and here's the catch..there isn't any slot in the frame base to get the old race moving....here's where you will need a M.I.G welder to make something to have purchase to your removal punch.
That's about it....replace backwards.
I'm not too sure about the sleeve you have mentioned....some photos would help if you haven't already gone ahead.
Thinking there has been a few posts with photos on this in the past...
My OEM bearings became notchy with highway use...mind, the origional ones are obv OK regreased...
If you are not too sure...just take photos on the strip down with the ol mobile....to be sure ..to be sure !
Small pun there as you might be Irish as well !

[Heelander]

Thanks for responses.

Bearings needed replaced otherwise I wouldn't be doing the job if I could avoid it! I'm last of several owners and while rest of bike is fine the steering had to get nipped up a lot to stop some play I was feeling.

Disappointed to hear lack of love for the All Balls kit. They certainly look and feel the business.

Couple of pics to follow on Monday night as suggested by Alex...

[Rod.s]

Thanks for responses.

Bearings needed replaced otherwise I wouldn't be doing the job if I could avoid it! I'm last of several owners and while rest of bike is fine the steering had to get nipped up a lot to stop some play I was feeling.

Disappointed to hear lack of love for the All Balls kit. They certainly look and feel the business.

Couple of pics to follow on Monday night as suggested by Alex...

Mate the needle roller bearing are designed to rotate multiple times and not sit still, the loose roller (ball) bearings rotate at least three/four times when the steering head is turned. The needle roller bearing fitted to newer bikes are a smaller needle that rotates and has a tighter tolerance to reduce chatter. There is nothing wrong with the original setup, IF they are serviced as per manual, the SAME will happen to the needle roller bearing if not installed correctly (clean out all storage grease and repack with new water proof grease) and NOT serviced correctly. Thick grease will stop the needle turning..bad

This is what they will look like in a very short time

[Heelander]

By measuring things up and using my brain (tricky) I think my first question about whether the sleeve below the top cup comes out has been answered (see pic) - it doesn't.



I have 2 other questions.

Q1: I reckon the top of the All Balls upper head race will be 1.5mm higher than the OEM arrangement at 16mm versus OEM 14.5mm (measuring from underside of cup in frame)? Doesn't seem right but does that matter?



Q2: The rubber seal inner diameter of the OEM grease cap that sits hard down on the top surface of the top bearing is around 41mm whereas the outer diameter of the All Balls head race is around 43mm. This means that the rubber seal can't fit down snugly over the All Balls bearing and this will then stop the cap sitting tight down onto the new bearing. Has anyone else experienced this with other brands of bearings? Seriously wondering whether the set I bought (from WEMOTO at £27.47) is a bit of rubbish as suggested by someone else on this thread!

[Rod.s]

By measuring things up and using my brain (tricky) I think my first question about whether the sleeve below the top cup comes out has been answered (see pic) - it doesn't.



I have 2 other questions.

Q1: I reckon the top of the All Balls upper head race will be 1.5mm higher than the OEM arrangement at 16mm versus OEM 14.5mm (measuring from underside of cup in frame)? Doesn't seem right but does that matter?
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Q2: The rubber seal inner diameter of the OEM grease cap that sits hard down on the top surface of the top bearing is around 41mm whereas the outer diameter of the All Balls head race is around 43mm. This means that the rubber seal can't fit down snugly over the All Balls bearing and this will then stop the cap sitting tight down onto the new bearing. Has anyone else experienced this with other brands of bearings? Seriously wondering whether the set I bought (from WEMOTO at £27.47) is a bit of rubbish as suggested by someone else on this thread!

And this is why we stick to the OEM balls as they work and the all balls/Pyramid kits don't, as they don't fit!

Do yourself a favour and buy some new balls from a bearing shop, polish the original cup and reassemble with a quality water proof grease. There is a reason that bikes/motorcycles have been using these style of bearings in the head stem for over 100 years

[Rod.s]

If you are going to use these, then this white grease is packing grease and needs to be cleaned out and repacked with the correct grease

[Heelander]

Thanks for the advice. Points taken. Ball bearing type bearings to be ordered along with the proper grease!

[Heelander]

What are the exact refs of the TRX 32005 and 32006 tapered bearing sets?

Some have letters after them online and some don't...?

[cobbadiggabuddyblooo]

No need to feel embarrassed, it seems to be quite a common belief.
It wasn't until I spoke to a motorcyle engineer and frame straightener he educated me on the same facts Rod has mentioned who himself is an aviation engineer.
So it always pays to ask questions and do a little research.
I've repacked mine with balls and just polished up the cups and have no issues.

New balls will be cheaper and you can use the grease to repack all the other bearings,..swing arm, relay arm, suspension.
I had the same result in the photo with the needle roller bearings used in my swingarm.
With the bike sitting around for a few yrs and very little use, I had the same rusty, notchy marks and hadn't repacked them in a while so the whole swing arm pivot pin/bearing/bush set up needed replacing.
Needless to say I'll be repacking them every 12 mths now

[Rod.s]

Thanks for the advice. Points taken. Ball bearing type bearings to be ordered along with the proper grease!

Sorry if i come across a bit "the facts only" but i deal with this all the time and in my line of work, it's the right way or the highway

[cobbadiggabuddyblooo]

What are the exact refs of the TRX 32005 and 32006 tapered bearing sets?

Some have letters after them online and some don't...?

it may have to something to do if their is a seal fitted or not.
I've seen some for sale for a trx that are bearings only and others that have the seals included.

[Heelander]

Well, ordered the Koyo taper bearings and they are SAME size as the All Balls ones.

Therefore have fitted the All Balls with proper grease this time (!) and all is good. If they do pack in I'll get Koyo ones next time but let's just see how they do meantime.

Froze the cups in the freezer for a couple of hours before fitting and heated up the stem tube with a hairdryer for 15 minutes. Worked an absolute treat although the bottom one needed a little persuasion.

(Bit of weld round the old top cup and it just about jumped out of the stem!)